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Have the government failed? 08:00 - Apr 27 with 33120 viewsRiscaJack

Can the more educated posters on this forum give me some opinions on this?

For me it looks like a complete disgrace from the start, no leadership, promises not kept, flights still coming into country from badly hit parts of world, using the excuse of "scientific advice" for not postponing the likes of Cheltenham Festival, Liverpool v Madrid, music gigs. We watched what was happening in Italy, I just can't find any excuses for them.

JENKINS OUT

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Have the government failed? on 14:37 - Apr 29 with 822 viewsJinxy

Apologies if previously posted, but an interesting article on S Korea's approach in contrast to ours.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8259103/How-South-Korea-way-agony.htm
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Have the government failed? on 14:54 - Apr 29 with 796 viewschad

Have the government failed? on 17:03 - Apr 28 by BytholWyn

Many of the criticisms of the WHO are valid, but the solution is to resource it properly and give it more teeth. You also need a leader, like Brundlandt, who's willing to exercise the limited power and influence of the WHO to its maximum.

Anyone who thinks that we should do away with global organisations like the WHO needs to have their head examined. The idea that individual countries, in an increasingly insular world order, can secure the concerted global action needed in the face of pandemics, is totally deluded.


I have not commented on funding of WHO, just their incompetence in this matter, seemingly emanating from a mixture of recklessness and playing politics.

I agree such an ‘independent’ organisation is a good thing, but the dangers of relying on such an organisation when it gets it wrong, on a catastrophic level, are devastating. Let us consider your opinion of those wanting to do away with it, being, Deluded? Needs their head examined?

Not my type of argument, but if it suits, perhaps more appropriately used about anyone who thinks we should pour more money into an organisation that actually facilitated the very thing it is set up to stop. That is a global pandemic, that could cost millions of lives. They held the world in their hands and had butterfingers. Funding does not affect advising care, as opposed to promoting the opposite.

Let us think about it, this thing that is ripping through societies across the world, killing us in our hundreds of thousands, tearing apart our economies, terrifying people, destroying businesses and jobs, profoundly affecting our children’s educations and futures, and creating a crippling burden of debt for generations to come. (But every cloud, hey Greta)

It probably started with a single case in Wuhan (either through stressed creatures in the market or the nearby bat research labs - where contamination had apparently occurred before), then a small cluster, before doctors became alarmed and took to social media. There was the time to stop it and mop up the limited escape, not promote the propaganda of cover up.

With its early, high, pre or low symptomatic infectivity and the wonder of globalisation it was soon too late. Like the devastating waves of Spanish flu driven by massive troop gatherings and movement 100 years before it.

Despite its past good works and failings, any such organisation that recklessly plays politics to such a devastating effect, that it actually facilitates, what its primary function is meant to prevent, does not need more funding, it needs totally resetting, IMHO.
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Have the government failed? on 15:00 - Apr 29 with 788 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 13:38 - Apr 29 by Catullus

If we went all the way down that road then NATO would be finished too. The Russians would love that. China too possibly, while I'm there so would many in the EU who want an EU army, it'd be the perfect excuse, I wonder if they'd have national service?


I am not aware of any of those things going on in Nato who are not a worldwide organisation.
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Have the government failed? on 15:02 - Apr 29 with 785 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 14:34 - Apr 29 by chad

If Mon has a go at you again just tell him you could not possibly know less about the Who than he does :)


Sorry I don't know anything about Dr. Who after about 1990.
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Have the government failed? on 15:11 - Apr 29 with 764 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 14:37 - Apr 29 by Jinxy

Apologies if previously posted, but an interesting article on S Korea's approach in contrast to ours.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8259103/How-South-Korea-way-agony.htm


I posted a video of a podcast on the 29th of March with the South Korean Pandemic medical advisor who had already been through 2 epidemics, it was very enlightening.
Here it is again
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Have the government failed? on 15:14 - Apr 29 with 759 viewsRiscaJack

Have the government failed? on 14:54 - Apr 29 by chad

I have not commented on funding of WHO, just their incompetence in this matter, seemingly emanating from a mixture of recklessness and playing politics.

I agree such an ‘independent’ organisation is a good thing, but the dangers of relying on such an organisation when it gets it wrong, on a catastrophic level, are devastating. Let us consider your opinion of those wanting to do away with it, being, Deluded? Needs their head examined?

Not my type of argument, but if it suits, perhaps more appropriately used about anyone who thinks we should pour more money into an organisation that actually facilitated the very thing it is set up to stop. That is a global pandemic, that could cost millions of lives. They held the world in their hands and had butterfingers. Funding does not affect advising care, as opposed to promoting the opposite.

Let us think about it, this thing that is ripping through societies across the world, killing us in our hundreds of thousands, tearing apart our economies, terrifying people, destroying businesses and jobs, profoundly affecting our children’s educations and futures, and creating a crippling burden of debt for generations to come. (But every cloud, hey Greta)

It probably started with a single case in Wuhan (either through stressed creatures in the market or the nearby bat research labs - where contamination had apparently occurred before), then a small cluster, before doctors became alarmed and took to social media. There was the time to stop it and mop up the limited escape, not promote the propaganda of cover up.

With its early, high, pre or low symptomatic infectivity and the wonder of globalisation it was soon too late. Like the devastating waves of Spanish flu driven by massive troop gatherings and movement 100 years before it.

Despite its past good works and failings, any such organisation that recklessly plays politics to such a devastating effect, that it actually facilitates, what its primary function is meant to prevent, does not need more funding, it needs totally resetting, IMHO.


Great post.

JENKINS OUT

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Have the government failed? on 16:22 - Apr 29 with 723 viewsJinxy

Have the government failed? on 15:11 - Apr 29 by A_Fans_Dad

I posted a video of a podcast on the 29th of March with the South Korean Pandemic medical advisor who had already been through 2 epidemics, it was very enlightening.
Here it is again


Thank you very much for posting that. A very informative, and also grim watch really in parts. Clearly the bloke knows what he is talking about, albeit they didn't really socially distance did they?!

Anyway, in his summing up he stated that if you are arrogant, you will lose. I have that feeling about our approach I'm afraid. I think we're arrogant in most things - we're not as "Great" as we think we are, not any more anyway, and that's dangerous - the quicker we become more humble and realise what we don't know, the better. Hopefully, lessons will be learnt.
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Have the government failed? on 17:06 - Apr 29 with 683 viewsBytholWyn

Have the government failed? on 14:54 - Apr 29 by chad

I have not commented on funding of WHO, just their incompetence in this matter, seemingly emanating from a mixture of recklessness and playing politics.

I agree such an ‘independent’ organisation is a good thing, but the dangers of relying on such an organisation when it gets it wrong, on a catastrophic level, are devastating. Let us consider your opinion of those wanting to do away with it, being, Deluded? Needs their head examined?

Not my type of argument, but if it suits, perhaps more appropriately used about anyone who thinks we should pour more money into an organisation that actually facilitated the very thing it is set up to stop. That is a global pandemic, that could cost millions of lives. They held the world in their hands and had butterfingers. Funding does not affect advising care, as opposed to promoting the opposite.

Let us think about it, this thing that is ripping through societies across the world, killing us in our hundreds of thousands, tearing apart our economies, terrifying people, destroying businesses and jobs, profoundly affecting our children’s educations and futures, and creating a crippling burden of debt for generations to come. (But every cloud, hey Greta)

It probably started with a single case in Wuhan (either through stressed creatures in the market or the nearby bat research labs - where contamination had apparently occurred before), then a small cluster, before doctors became alarmed and took to social media. There was the time to stop it and mop up the limited escape, not promote the propaganda of cover up.

With its early, high, pre or low symptomatic infectivity and the wonder of globalisation it was soon too late. Like the devastating waves of Spanish flu driven by massive troop gatherings and movement 100 years before it.

Despite its past good works and failings, any such organisation that recklessly plays politics to such a devastating effect, that it actually facilitates, what its primary function is meant to prevent, does not need more funding, it needs totally resetting, IMHO.


Criticism of the WHO is perfectly valid, much of which I agree with. But there's an enormous jump to arguing for getting rid of the organisation altogether. There would be a number of steps that could be undertaken before taking such draconian action. The starting point would be a thorough and objective investigation of its handling of the current crisis (and throw in its endorsement of Traditional Chinese Medicine). To preempt the outcome of such an enquiry, as Trump has done, is simply a transparent attempt to deflect attention from his administration's failings.

The problem that the WHO has, and any supra-national agency would have, is being able to properly investigate outbreaks in countries, such as China, which are reluctant to co-operate. With the SARS outbreak back in 2002, the WHO had to rely on reports from third parties to discover what was going on as set out in the Guardian article I referenced earlier in this thread:

"Brundtland pushed the WHO to use its local contacts, diplomatic channels and the emerging internet to locate potential outbreaks, all of which made the organisation less reliant on national governments for information. Within just a few years, this strategy proved its worth. In November 2002, when the Chinese government became aware of the first cases of a novel respiratory disease, later named Sars, it failed to alert the WHO. But, as part of Brundtland’s new approach, WHO staff were monitoring Chinese medical message boards and news media anyway, and were aware of what was then thought to be an atypical pneumonia outbreak. Adding to their suspicions, on 10 February 2003, David Heymann, who was then executive director of the WHO’s communicable diseases cluster, received an email from the son of a former WHO staff member in China warning of a “strange contagious disease” that had already killed 100 people, but which was “not allowed to be made known to the public”. The WHO took the information it had to China, which made its first official report to the WHO the next day.

Although the WHO had no formal powers to monitor and censure its members, Brundtland wasn’t shy about doing so anyway. In the ensuing months she would accuse China of withholding information, claiming that the outbreak might have been contained “if the WHO had been able to help at an earlier stage” and exhorting the Chinese to “let us come in as quickly as possible!” With remarkable speed, China fell in line and shared its data with the WHO. “After her statements to China, no other countries hesitated,” said Heymann."

Who knows, perhaps as a result of a fair and objective investigation into the WHO's direction under its current leader, he will need to be replaced, or other changes instigated. But whoever is in charge, and whatever their budget, they will still have to deal with secretive and uncooperative regimes, such as the Chinese one. If that Guardian article is anything to go by the no-nonsense approach of Brundtland is preferable to the softly-softly approach of Tedros Adhanom, but there's only so much an agency such as the WHO can do - if it's faced with intransigent and powerful nation states.

I challenge anyone to watch the Pandemic Netflix series and conclude that getting rid of the WHO with immediate effect is a good idea. They do a lot of unheralded work, from which we all benefit. So yes, anyone who suggests getting rid of the WHO without first exploring the possibility of reform, or failing that, having an alternative organisation up and running in its place, needs to have their head examined.
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Have the government failed? on 17:54 - Apr 29 with 636 viewschad

Thank you for your considered response it was going so well until the final line ;)
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Have the government failed? on 18:05 - Apr 29 with 624 viewschad

Have the government failed? on 17:54 - Apr 29 by chad

Thank you for your considered response it was going so well until the final line ;)


hI mart ;)

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Have the government failed? on 18:36 - Apr 29 with 603 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 15:11 - Apr 29 by A_Fans_Dad

I posted a video of a podcast on the 29th of March with the South Korean Pandemic medical advisor who had already been through 2 epidemics, it was very enlightening.
Here it is again


Very informative. The Asians are streets ahead of us. So masks do help?
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Have the government failed? on 18:48 - Apr 29 with 578 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 15:00 - Apr 29 by A_Fans_Dad

I am not aware of any of those things going on in Nato who are not a worldwide organisation.


Have you missed Trump complaining?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/02/nato-donald-trump-second-term

NATO isn't global, no, but arguably as important as any global organisation. Unless you'd have preferred to be under Russian control?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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Have the government failed? on 18:55 - Apr 29 with 565 viewsploppy

Have the government failed? on 18:48 - Apr 29 by Catullus

Have you missed Trump complaining?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/02/nato-donald-trump-second-term

NATO isn't global, no, but arguably as important as any global organisation. Unless you'd have preferred to be under Russian control?


I may have misunderstood but I think AFD was saying that NATO hasn't been mired in "scandals, corruption, racism and sexual transgressions and cover ups". Trump has indeed complained about NATO , or more precisely, the amount the US is contributing to NATO compared to some other countries. It's difficult to argue with his position.
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Have the government failed? on 19:11 - Apr 29 with 529 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 18:55 - Apr 29 by ploppy

I may have misunderstood but I think AFD was saying that NATO hasn't been mired in "scandals, corruption, racism and sexual transgressions and cover ups". Trump has indeed complained about NATO , or more precisely, the amount the US is contributing to NATO compared to some other countries. It's difficult to argue with his position.


Well there's the funding but scandals too,

https://apnews.com/1fd36ad8beb840cab0d2d1a31fd4e5f2

https://euobserver.com/foreign/144178

https://securitystudies.org/scandal-threatens-nato/

https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/2017/11/20/nato-chief-officers-should-be-in

https://observer.com/2016/05/natos-big-new-russian-spy-scandal/

Scandal is there, as for the rest, who knows?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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Have the government failed? on 21:06 - Apr 29 with 469 viewsjack2jack

This threads got a bit messy, So what's the upshot, failed or not.
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Have the government failed? on 21:08 - Apr 29 with 466 viewsHighjack

Have the government failed? on 21:06 - Apr 29 by jack2jack

This threads got a bit messy, So what's the upshot, failed or not.


Janice and Kilky failed massively.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: The official planetswans European election poll. Your vote goes to?

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Have the government failed? on 21:12 - Apr 29 with 459 viewsjack2jack

Have the government failed? on 21:08 - Apr 29 by Highjack

Janice and Kilky failed massively.


Oh! Controversial, however, it's the Government part I was more interested in.
Thanks for the reply though👍
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Have the government failed? on 21:13 - Apr 29 with 457 viewsPentyrchJack

Don't worry, Gordon Brown is going to sort it out in Wales......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52468157?intlink_from_url= https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wales/wales_politics&link_location=live-reporting-sto

Poll: Fox Hunting - what do you think?

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Have the government failed? on 21:17 - Apr 29 with 450 viewsjack2jack

Have the government failed? on 21:13 - Apr 29 by PentyrchJack

Don't worry, Gordon Brown is going to sort it out in Wales......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52468157?intlink_from_url= https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wales/wales_politics&link_location=live-reporting-sto


I shall sleep a lot easier tonight knowing that, thanks😉
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Have the government failed? on 21:21 - Apr 29 with 445 viewslonglostjack

Have the government failed? on 21:06 - Apr 29 by jack2jack

This threads got a bit messy, So what's the upshot, failed or not.


Agreed ! Gone to the canines!

Poll: Alcohol in the lockdown

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Have the government failed? on 21:31 - Apr 29 with 420 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 21:08 - Apr 29 by Highjack

Janice and Kilky failed massively.


One chump poster discovered the PM of NZ is a woman.

Un-fecking-believable mun .... 😂😂😂😂 🇳🇿
[Post edited 29 Apr 21:43]

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Have the government failed? on 21:38 - Apr 29 with 409 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 21:12 - Apr 29 by jack2jack

Oh! Controversial, however, it's the Government part I was more interested in.
Thanks for the reply though👍


I think I'll stick with there is no success or failure just a better or worse outcome and I think we'll have (already have) done worse than we could have . Kilk will call that a failure but unless we hit the 250k dead i won't go that far. We might get that high I guess, 2nd and 3rd waves or more, no vaccine, lockdown falls apart, virus mutates etc but that's beyond predicting.

Selfishly, I just hope myself, my wife and son survive, whatever else happens.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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Have the government failed? on 21:44 - Apr 29 with 398 viewsHighjack

Have the government failed? on 21:31 - Apr 29 by Kilkennyjack

One chump poster discovered the PM of NZ is a woman.

Un-fecking-believable mun .... 😂😂😂😂 🇳🇿
[Post edited 29 Apr 21:43]


One chump posted discovered?

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: The official planetswans European election poll. Your vote goes to?

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Have the government failed? on 21:46 - Apr 29 with 396 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 21:38 - Apr 29 by Catullus

I think I'll stick with there is no success or failure just a better or worse outcome and I think we'll have (already have) done worse than we could have . Kilk will call that a failure but unless we hit the 250k dead i won't go that far. We might get that high I guess, 2nd and 3rd waves or more, no vaccine, lockdown falls apart, virus mutates etc but that's beyond predicting.

Selfishly, I just hope myself, my wife and son survive, whatever else happens.


Great post 👍

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Have the government failed? on 21:46 - Apr 29 with 397 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 18:36 - Apr 29 by controversial_jack

Very informative. The Asians are streets ahead of us. So masks do help?


According to him they do and glasses.
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