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Brexit Progress 10:06 - Sep 6 with 26414 viewsBatterseajack

Michael Gove “we hold all the cards and can choose the path we want”
Boris Johnson “continue to be free trade and access to the single market”
David Davis “We will do deals with our trading partners and do them quickly”

Well these quotes couldn't seem further from truth right now. They campaigned for Brexit , yet now these three are in positions of power, appear totally incapable of delivering it and have vastly underestimated and misunderstood their counterparts in the EU. Will these three or even the Tories ever be accountable for how Brexit is being carried out?

BTW - This is not intended as another argument for the rights and wrongs for voting to leave / remain. But to discuss the politicians who appear to have no plan whatsoever for this.
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Brexit Progress on 21:48 - Sep 7 with 2850 viewsKilkennyjack

Brexit Progress on 21:23 - Sep 7 by PozuelosSideys

No. Im referring to the UKs preference of maintaining the current status quo in NI under what was agreed in the Good Friday agreement. It is the EU who now wish to drive change there in order to fit their agenda.

Then again, i wouldnt expect you to understand, but at least you post unlike 'down arrow mart6' who hides in the background without positing his own opinions to thread.


No.

Brexit is the damaging change.

European Human Rights at core of Good Friday Agreement (GFA).
Mayhem wants to scrap that, breeching GFA.

Also Brexit now makes the border a hard border for goods and services.
That changes the status quo of a soft border between 2 member states.

The EU are protecting the GFA.

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Brexit Progress on 22:02 - Sep 7 with 2839 viewssherpajacob

Brexit Progress on 21:23 - Sep 7 by PozuelosSideys

No. Im referring to the UKs preference of maintaining the current status quo in NI under what was agreed in the Good Friday agreement. It is the EU who now wish to drive change there in order to fit their agenda.

Then again, i wouldnt expect you to understand, but at least you post unlike 'down arrow mart6' who hides in the background without positing his own opinions to thread.


Northern Ireland voted to remain, they are being taken out against their will.

Ireland would prefer the UK to remain in the EU, but if not the EU at least remain in the customs union which would allow a soft border and common travel area to continue. It is the UK government that has dismissed this solution without prior consultation with any of the affected parties.

This whole situation was flagged up and highlighted before the referendum, but any concerns were dismissed by brexiteers as scaremongering.

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Brexit Progress on 22:04 - Sep 7 with 2836 viewsKilkennyjack

Brexit Progress on 22:02 - Sep 7 by sherpajacob

Northern Ireland voted to remain, they are being taken out against their will.

Ireland would prefer the UK to remain in the EU, but if not the EU at least remain in the customs union which would allow a soft border and common travel area to continue. It is the UK government that has dismissed this solution without prior consultation with any of the affected parties.

This whole situation was flagged up and highlighted before the referendum, but any concerns were dismissed by brexiteers as scaremongering.


Yep

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Brexit Progress on 22:07 - Sep 7 with 2835 viewslonglostjack

Brexit Progress on 21:48 - Sep 7 by Kilkennyjack

No.

Brexit is the damaging change.

European Human Rights at core of Good Friday Agreement (GFA).
Mayhem wants to scrap that, breeching GFA.

Also Brexit now makes the border a hard border for goods and services.
That changes the status quo of a soft border between 2 member states.

The EU are protecting the GFA.


Don't be so gullible Kilkenny. It's all an EU plot to undermine Brexit and let Ireland allow scores of East Europeans into the UK through the back door to claim benefits and occupy scarce hospital beds. The EU has had it in for us from day 1 the bastards and this is just another example of their devious behaviour. Let's get hard and show em what we're made of. Let's put the great back into Great Britain ! All hail Theresa and David !

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Brexit Progress on 22:16 - Sep 7 with 2820 viewssherpajacob

Brexit Progress on 21:23 - Sep 7 by PozuelosSideys

No. Im referring to the UKs preference of maintaining the current status quo in NI under what was agreed in the Good Friday agreement. It is the EU who now wish to drive change there in order to fit their agenda.

Then again, i wouldnt expect you to understand, but at least you post unlike 'down arrow mart6' who hides in the background without positing his own opinions to thread.


what would your solution be if we maintain the status quo of the current border with the republic.

Any EU citizen who has legally entered Ireland (there are a lot of Poles in Dublin) may then enter the UK, by ferry to Holyhead, Pembroke or over the land border to Belfast and jump on a ferry to Scotland.

is this taking back control of our borders, If EU citizens can enter the UK this route, what's the point of border controls at Dover?

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Brexit Progress on 22:20 - Sep 7 with 2811 viewsPozuelosSideys

Brexit Progress on 22:02 - Sep 7 by sherpajacob

Northern Ireland voted to remain, they are being taken out against their will.

Ireland would prefer the UK to remain in the EU, but if not the EU at least remain in the customs union which would allow a soft border and common travel area to continue. It is the UK government that has dismissed this solution without prior consultation with any of the affected parties.

This whole situation was flagged up and highlighted before the referendum, but any concerns were dismissed by brexiteers as scaremongering.


Ugh. Northern Ireland voted to do nothing of the sort. The UK voted as one.

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
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Brexit Progress on 22:23 - Sep 7 with 2805 viewsPozuelosSideys

Brexit Progress on 22:16 - Sep 7 by sherpajacob

what would your solution be if we maintain the status quo of the current border with the republic.

Any EU citizen who has legally entered Ireland (there are a lot of Poles in Dublin) may then enter the UK, by ferry to Holyhead, Pembroke or over the land border to Belfast and jump on a ferry to Scotland.

is this taking back control of our borders, If EU citizens can enter the UK this route, what's the point of border controls at Dover?


Border controls remain at transport hubs in the UK mainland from both NI & the Rep. Not rocket science. Flash a UK passport and walk on through. Everyone else get in the queue.

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
Poll: Hattricks

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Brexit Progress on 22:36 - Sep 7 with 2789 viewsKilkennyjack

Brexit Progress on 22:07 - Sep 7 by longlostjack

Don't be so gullible Kilkenny. It's all an EU plot to undermine Brexit and let Ireland allow scores of East Europeans into the UK through the back door to claim benefits and occupy scarce hospital beds. The EU has had it in for us from day 1 the bastards and this is just another example of their devious behaviour. Let's get hard and show em what we're made of. Let's put the great back into Great Britain ! All hail Theresa and David !


😂😂

I stand corrected.

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Brexit Progress on 22:39 - Sep 7 with 2782 viewsLeonWasGod

Brexit Progress on 20:10 - Sep 7 by 73_Symonds_Yat

Its a fact that the eu owes the UK billions of £ in assets that they own.
The UK has no legal obligation to pay a single penny on leaving. It's that simple, why do you remoaners try and circumvent those facts ?, and make out it's the UK, that has to bow down to all the eu's demands.

My wish would be , sack the British negotiators and replace them with hardline pro Brexit people.


EU assets owable to the UK are part of the negotiations, even down to the ridiculousness of arguing the toss over the contents of the wine cellar (which will only go to the Lords/HoC anyway).

We've certainly got obligations we've already signed up to. Whether there's a legal requirement for us to pay isn't known and could probably only be determined if we went through arbitration. I've not been following the last round of negotiations closely, but I wonder if this is what the UK govt want - take it to the courts and hope to back out of our commitments?
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Brexit Progress on 22:45 - Sep 7 with 2779 viewssherpajacob

Brexit Progress on 22:23 - Sep 7 by PozuelosSideys

Border controls remain at transport hubs in the UK mainland from both NI & the Rep. Not rocket science. Flash a UK passport and walk on through. Everyone else get in the queue.


So no passport needed to get from Dublin to Belfast, but passport needed to get from Belfast to Edinburgh, Cardiff and London.

A united Ireland separate from GB.

What about NI citizen's who don't possess a passport but want to go to Scotland by ferry. Not even allowed to travel around their own country?

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Brexit Progress on 22:56 - Sep 7 with 2763 viewsPozuelosSideys

Brexit Progress on 22:45 - Sep 7 by sherpajacob

So no passport needed to get from Dublin to Belfast, but passport needed to get from Belfast to Edinburgh, Cardiff and London.

A united Ireland separate from GB.

What about NI citizen's who don't possess a passport but want to go to Scotland by ferry. Not even allowed to travel around their own country?


You keep throwing up obstacles as to why stuff cant be done. Im giving you potential solutions and you keep throwing up more obstacles. This will go on and on. Im sure travel documents/permits can be provided to citizens of NI to travel around the UK if they so wish (2 solutions to your problem already)

In your mind Ireland becomes a completely separate entity because you want to proven correct, but given the history it has, a creative solution was found under Blair and creative solutions will need to be found here again. The last thing anyone wants is a return to what was, and that should be at the forefront of the minds both of the UK and EU.

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
Poll: Hattricks

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Brexit Progress on 01:11 - Sep 8 with 2730 viewswobbly

Brexit Progress on 16:20 - Sep 7 by londonlisa2001

It's been reported widely after the House of Lords came to that conclusion some months ago.

However, the hole that they would face would be minuscule compared to the hole that we would face.


If it is so minuscule, why is it so important that we agree to cover it before they talk about anything else?
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Brexit Progress on 09:10 - Sep 8 with 2680 viewsBatterseajack

Brexit Progress on 22:56 - Sep 7 by PozuelosSideys

You keep throwing up obstacles as to why stuff cant be done. Im giving you potential solutions and you keep throwing up more obstacles. This will go on and on. Im sure travel documents/permits can be provided to citizens of NI to travel around the UK if they so wish (2 solutions to your problem already)

In your mind Ireland becomes a completely separate entity because you want to proven correct, but given the history it has, a creative solution was found under Blair and creative solutions will need to be found here again. The last thing anyone wants is a return to what was, and that should be at the forefront of the minds both of the UK and EU.


But your solution is effectively handing migration control of northern Ireland over to the EU. Hardly taking back control. But that's one way of dealing with people, how would the boarder work when goods cross between northern and southern Ireland when none currently exits?
[Post edited 8 Sep 2017 10:11]
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Brexit Progress on 12:31 - Sep 8 with 2652 viewslondonlisa2001

Brexit Progress on 01:11 - Sep 8 by wobbly

If it is so minuscule, why is it so important that we agree to cover it before they talk about anything else?


Because it's winding up the old position before negotiating the new position.

Pretty standard stuff.
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Brexit Progress on 12:40 - Sep 8 with 2648 viewsBatterseajack

Brexit Progress on 20:10 - Sep 7 by 73_Symonds_Yat

Its a fact that the eu owes the UK billions of £ in assets that they own.
The UK has no legal obligation to pay a single penny on leaving. It's that simple, why do you remoaners try and circumvent those facts ?, and make out it's the UK, that has to bow down to all the eu's demands.

My wish would be , sack the British negotiators and replace them with hardline pro Brexit people.


Yes the EU will owe us Billion, but we'll owe them more billions back. I kindly provided a link the FT's breakdown of this. We have a legal and moral obligation to settle our debts that we agreed to pay whilst we were in the EU. That is an undeniable fact, but i know mnay in your position yno longer chose to deal in facts.

Our British negotiators are a bunch of unelected civil servants lead by David Davis who campaigned for Brixit and once upon a time was a candidate to lead the Tory party. Who would you rather have in charge? Liam Fox? Bo jo?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B0zKV3jjPvj4eAFwDwfdM_7T0M5ZA4T9s2I_02zfHTz-ph
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Brexit Progress on 12:45 - Sep 8 with 2641 viewslondonlisa2001

Brexit Progress on 12:40 - Sep 8 by Batterseajack

Yes the EU will owe us Billion, but we'll owe them more billions back. I kindly provided a link the FT's breakdown of this. We have a legal and moral obligation to settle our debts that we agreed to pay whilst we were in the EU. That is an undeniable fact, but i know mnay in your position yno longer chose to deal in facts.

Our British negotiators are a bunch of unelected civil servants lead by David Davis who campaigned for Brixit and once upon a time was a candidate to lead the Tory party. Who would you rather have in charge? Liam Fox? Bo jo?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B0zKV3jjPvj4eAFwDwfdM_7T0M5ZA4T9s2I_02zfHTz-ph


If DGT had his way it'd be Godfrey Bloom and Jacob Rees Mogg, together with an army of extras from Dads Army screaming 'don't you know we're British' every two minutes.
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Brexit Progress on 13:04 - Sep 8 with 2623 viewsBatterseajack

Brexit Progress on 12:45 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

If DGT had his way it'd be Godfrey Bloom and Jacob Rees Mogg, together with an army of extras from Dads Army screaming 'don't you know we're British' every two minutes.


fair point with Jacob Rees-Mogg. He's probably the only prominent briexiteer who still thinks we'll still make a rip-roaring success of this. Everyone else, including the daily mail and the express have reverted to a damage limitation outlook on Brexit. They'll blame the EU officials for protecting their members interests or blame remoaners for talking the country down, rather admitting that they've been selling the country lies upon lies.
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Brexit Progress on 13:06 - Sep 8 with 2621 viewsYossarian

Shame there's no link available, but Yanis Varoufakis gave an interesting insight into the negotiating tactics of the EU and the inherent hypocrisy of unelected officials protecting the privileges of an unelected elite. After all, Varoufakis has got first hand experience and can speak with some authority. For many of us, the whole European project is a profoundly undemocratic and riven with cronyism. Putting aside the issue of free movement of people and the single market, the EU has proven time and again that it is incapable of reform. I personally am not anti-immigration and would be very much in favour of the free market. In an effort to bring everyone together, I would have thought that a decent compromise would be to ask for 'free movement' of labour (as opposed to free movement of people) in return for access to the single market and implying that anyone is welcome here to work and contribute. However, the EU is absolutely adamant that this will never be allowed to happen. Like everything in life, it's not the fault of one side only. Whatever you might think of his politics, Varoufakis is an intelligent and worldly individual who should be listened to. Perhaps the intrinsicly undemocratic and unreformable nature of the EU is why Labour MPs like Kate Hoey voted Leave. For the record, I am a member of the Labour Party and I voted Leave- precisely because I wanted the less of two evils- at least we get a chance every 5 years to change our UK Government. We cannot get rid of the Junker and the Commission etc. I am saddened by the fact that we will leave the single market and customs union, and I remain pro-European but anti-EU. Like Varoufakis, I genuinely think Davis is trying to get a mutually beneficial settlement, but the EU will NEVER negotiate along these lines "pour encourager les autres".

"Yossarian- the very sight of the name made him shudder.There were so many esses in it. It just had to be subversive" (Catch 22)

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Brexit Progress on 13:09 - Sep 8 with 2614 viewsBatterseajack

Brexit Progress on 13:06 - Sep 8 by Yossarian

Shame there's no link available, but Yanis Varoufakis gave an interesting insight into the negotiating tactics of the EU and the inherent hypocrisy of unelected officials protecting the privileges of an unelected elite. After all, Varoufakis has got first hand experience and can speak with some authority. For many of us, the whole European project is a profoundly undemocratic and riven with cronyism. Putting aside the issue of free movement of people and the single market, the EU has proven time and again that it is incapable of reform. I personally am not anti-immigration and would be very much in favour of the free market. In an effort to bring everyone together, I would have thought that a decent compromise would be to ask for 'free movement' of labour (as opposed to free movement of people) in return for access to the single market and implying that anyone is welcome here to work and contribute. However, the EU is absolutely adamant that this will never be allowed to happen. Like everything in life, it's not the fault of one side only. Whatever you might think of his politics, Varoufakis is an intelligent and worldly individual who should be listened to. Perhaps the intrinsicly undemocratic and unreformable nature of the EU is why Labour MPs like Kate Hoey voted Leave. For the record, I am a member of the Labour Party and I voted Leave- precisely because I wanted the less of two evils- at least we get a chance every 5 years to change our UK Government. We cannot get rid of the Junker and the Commission etc. I am saddened by the fact that we will leave the single market and customs union, and I remain pro-European but anti-EU. Like Varoufakis, I genuinely think Davis is trying to get a mutually beneficial settlement, but the EU will NEVER negotiate along these lines "pour encourager les autres".


So i suppose you also have an issue with the UK civil servants who are unelected and run our country.

The unelected EU officials you talk of draft up the legislation for elected members representing each country to vote on.
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Brexit Progress on 13:29 - Sep 8 with 2605 viewssherpajacob

Brexit Progress on 13:06 - Sep 8 by Yossarian

Shame there's no link available, but Yanis Varoufakis gave an interesting insight into the negotiating tactics of the EU and the inherent hypocrisy of unelected officials protecting the privileges of an unelected elite. After all, Varoufakis has got first hand experience and can speak with some authority. For many of us, the whole European project is a profoundly undemocratic and riven with cronyism. Putting aside the issue of free movement of people and the single market, the EU has proven time and again that it is incapable of reform. I personally am not anti-immigration and would be very much in favour of the free market. In an effort to bring everyone together, I would have thought that a decent compromise would be to ask for 'free movement' of labour (as opposed to free movement of people) in return for access to the single market and implying that anyone is welcome here to work and contribute. However, the EU is absolutely adamant that this will never be allowed to happen. Like everything in life, it's not the fault of one side only. Whatever you might think of his politics, Varoufakis is an intelligent and worldly individual who should be listened to. Perhaps the intrinsicly undemocratic and unreformable nature of the EU is why Labour MPs like Kate Hoey voted Leave. For the record, I am a member of the Labour Party and I voted Leave- precisely because I wanted the less of two evils- at least we get a chance every 5 years to change our UK Government. We cannot get rid of the Junker and the Commission etc. I am saddened by the fact that we will leave the single market and customs union, and I remain pro-European but anti-EU. Like Varoufakis, I genuinely think Davis is trying to get a mutually beneficial settlement, but the EU will NEVER negotiate along these lines "pour encourager les autres".


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_3.1.3.h

What you ask for in terms of free movement of labour was already available within the EU, Be economically self sufficient within 3 months or leave. its just the UK chose not to apply it. One of the reasons Cameron's negotiations failed, he was asking for something he could have already had.

In respect of un electing Junker, nobody outside Maidenhead has the power to unelect Theresa May. We do however have the house of lords to keep her in check.

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Brexit Progress on 14:31 - Sep 8 with 2583 viewswobbly

Brexit Progress on 12:31 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

Because it's winding up the old position before negotiating the new position.

Pretty standard stuff.


And yet it's impossible to agree on the figure to wind up the old position until you know what the new position will be?

I voted to remain but even I can see that the EU position on this is ludicrous.
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Brexit Progress on 15:05 - Sep 8 with 2568 viewslonglostjack

Brexit Progress on 13:29 - Sep 8 by sherpajacob

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_3.1.3.h

What you ask for in terms of free movement of labour was already available within the EU, Be economically self sufficient within 3 months or leave. its just the UK chose not to apply it. One of the reasons Cameron's negotiations failed, he was asking for something he could have already had.

In respect of un electing Junker, nobody outside Maidenhead has the power to unelect Theresa May. We do however have the house of lords to keep her in check.


Absolutely correct. In Germany people arriving from other EU states are not entitled to any social benefits until they have worked for 5 years for example.

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Brexit Progress on 15:19 - Sep 8 with 2558 viewssherpajacob

I've never voted conservative, but I would be delighted if there was a sudden and unexpected outbreak of common sense and this chap became PM, even if just in a caretaker role.


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Brexit Progress on 15:51 - Sep 8 with 2541 viewsBatterseajack

Brexit Progress on 14:31 - Sep 8 by wobbly

And yet it's impossible to agree on the figure to wind up the old position until you know what the new position will be?

I voted to remain but even I can see that the EU position on this is ludicrous.


How?? Its called settling your debts. Our new position with the EU is a clean cut from our previous relationship with it as a member.
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Brexit Progress on 16:36 - Sep 8 with 2520 viewssherpajacob

Brexit Progress on 14:31 - Sep 8 by wobbly

And yet it's impossible to agree on the figure to wind up the old position until you know what the new position will be?

I voted to remain but even I can see that the EU position on this is ludicrous.


The new position will be negotiated with the UK as a non member, The bill is to settle outstanding liabilities.

If I had an ongoing contract to supply widgets to UK PLC to 2020 and they broke that contract in 2016 saying we wont pay for any more widgets after 2019, leaving me out of pocket, and they then said lets negotiate a new contract to supply thingybobs, I would politely ask them to settle their bill for the first contract before I considered doing business with them again.

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